Comments for Old Time Farm Shepherd .org

Comment on Old Fashioned Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft by Jill

Jill — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:07:51 +0000

What a wonderful site you have! I’ve so enjoyed exploring both the site and the origins of the modern collie breeds. I have a few comments on the draft, since you asked. I had shelties for 25 years, and despite the horrible overbreeding and poor breeding of these dogs, they are absolutely stellar when you obtain them from an ethical, responsible breeder. Re Temperment: A good sheltie is NOT yappy, excitable, nervous or genetically shy, and these are completely in opposition to the breed standard. Although many shelties are not good with children, the larger ones seem to be less skittish around toddlers. One of the nicest sheltie characteristics is that they’ll work or play as long as you will and can be trained to do almost anything around a farm including varmint hunting, but are happy to lie around and veg when not busy. They especially like piles of laundry… Re Head Type: Shelties are supposed to have a head shaped like “a blunt wedge” either longer or more triangular, with a small but definite stop that looks much like the old scotch collie photos. I have seen exactly the head type you’re looking for in a few oversize shelties; modern rough collies were crossed into at least one sheltie line as recently as the 1960s, plus shelties do not breed true for size in the desired size range of 13-16 inches at the shoulder. If you are yourself establishing a bloodline and not just a registry, you might consider including some sheltie crosses should you come across a larger (16″ and up) dog that fits your mental picture. As for a foxy look, English shelties (and collies too?) have a much foxier look than those from North America. I would caution against having too “sharp” a muzzle – this can lead to undershot lower jaws which can cause health problems. You can have a sharpish muzzle and still have good underjaw. Re Gait: On many of the Farm Collie sites, it seems like a LOT of the dogs, whether English Shepherds or other, have very straight rear angulation. Dogs with a primary gait of the trot, like collies and most other shepherds, need some angulation in the rear so that they don’t tire as easily. You might consider stipulating some angulation, even if you don’t want to get too specific about it. The sheltie standard actually states what angles the bones should have in relation to each other for both front and rear conformation, but I don’t know that that level of detail is necessary. If a dog can work all day long, that’s the test. Re Eye shape: Personally, I find that a round eye is not nearly so expressive or pretty as an almond shaped eye. That’s just my preference, though. Re Color: Would you consider adding white as a color? Color-headed whites have no genetic defects and this is an established collie color (it’s also in shelties but due to politics in the ASSA a few decades back, they cannot be shown in conformation.) There are no genetic problems associated with color-headed whites. Your description above would imply that sable merles would be allowed, which is fine, but be aware that these are difficult to detect as adults; if bred to another merle, either sable or blue, then double merle pups can result and usually have vision, hearing or other serious health problems. I only mention this because it isn’t mentioned anywhere that I could find on your site. Like Jan, I also vote to have black and tan allowed! OK, I will stop now since I’m sure you’re tired of reading this!!

Comment on Old Fashioned Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft by Shep

Shep — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 12:39:00 +0000

Jan

Thanks for the feedback.

You are right, collies today are much larger than in previous times, but so are humans, much of this can no doubt be attributed to better nutrition.

I don’t think black and tan was intentionally left out, it would no doubt be covered by the phrase “any combination thereof is acceptable”. But good luck finding one of these.

It is my belief that “treacherous” was nothing more than a negative stereotype that the breed had, and not an actual breed characteristic. As evidence I submit the wealth of stories about the scotch collie on this website, no evidence of a treacherous nature is found here. Some breeds in our day suffer with negative stereotyping, Rottweilers for example. However, being unfriendly to people not their people is certainly acceptable and quite common, I believe the phrase “reserved with strangers” would allow for a certain amount of that sort of behavior. I for one prefer my dogs to be unfriendly to strangers until I tell them it is okay.

Comment on The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect by Linda Rorem

Linda Rorem — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:39:23 +0000

I’ve added a note to mine that I hope will help clarify it. As you point out, the diversity has been there all along. Different perspectives bring out different nuances and contribute to providing a more complete picture.

(p.s. that photo of Dunrovin Ole Shep is one of my favorites)

Comment on Old Fashioned Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft by jan

jan — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:48:48 +0000

A couple thoughts… I’m glad your size range only goes up to 65 pounds since all the early records suggest the original collies were pretty small. Selection for show and over here in the states where there were larger predators made larger dogs more common but in Watson’s The Dog Book and other places it’s obvious the early collies were large Sheltie size.

Why no black and tans. Again, that is probably the most common of the early collie color. Sable was quite rare. Merle was also common. But both in working and early show lines the B&T was very prominant.

Temperament – the original collies were quite sharp and generally unfriendly to people who weren’t their people. Treacherous was a word fairly often applied. Not that I’m advocating selection for this trait, mind you, but it is the historical temperament.

Comment on The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect by Shep

Shep — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 02:34:35 +0000

Linda

Thanks for the comment. My intention was not to cast aspersions on your chart, simply to clarify a matter that was a particular pet peeve of mine. I feel like a lot of people talk as though the diversity we see in collie-type dogs today was a result of breeding in the past 150 years, and your chart could certainly give one that impression, while it is my contention that most of that diversity has come down to us from the regional varieties of herding dogs and I wanted to create my own chart showing the influence of those regional varieties.

Comment on New Online Registry for Scotch Collies by Shep

Shep — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 02:24:07 +0000

This was not intended as a put-down for the ESC registry, I am a registered member there and have used it extensively, it is one of the finest in existence. The statement “a huge improvement on most other online registries” was not directed at the ESC registry, “most” is not the same as “all”, I do consider the ESC registry the touchstone. The PDF files I was referring to are those required for adding a dog to the registry, I admit I was less than clear about this, my registry has online forms for adding dogs which I think is one improvement I have over the ESC.

I might point out that this is not intended to compete with the English Shepherd registry in any way, this is intended primarily for dogs like Scout that cannot be registered elsewhere.

Comment on New Online Registry for Scotch Collies by jan

jan — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 01:04:22 +0000

I think this is a huge improvement on most other online registries out there, the English Shepherd Club’s does not even have an online form, just pdf files that you can print out

What ESC registry are you referring to? The ESC registry has no PDF files at all, is fully searchable online for any dogs or owners, and quite detailed. I suggest you actually check it out: http://www.esc-registry.org/

Comment on The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect by Linda Rorem

Linda Rorem — Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:58:54 +0000

Re: collie family tree. You’re right that my version was meant to show relationships, however, by no means was it intended to indicate that originally there was only one type of shepherd’s dog in Britain. I am familiar with the sources cited and others. There were great variations of shepherd dog type between regions and within regions, as well as commonalities within regions and across regions, e.g., shaggy-faced types occurred in England, Scotland and Wales, blue merles occurred in England, Scotland and Wales, etc., while at times a particular type was more common in a particular area and became associated with that area. (Then, throughout the 19th century, the Scottish collies became particularly influential, going into Wales and further south in England, mixing with the dogs there; further mixing occurred in the farm dogs of the U.S.; and the term “collie” for a working sheepdog became widespread and often used interchangeably with “shepherd’s dog” or “shepherd”.) Two factors are indicated by the single line shown at the top of the chart. One is no more than simplification on a chart, as noted on the chart itself. The other is that the modern breeds did not come down in clean, separate lines from earlier types. I suppose I could make an addition to the note at the top to clarify this, because I certainly do not believe or mean to imply that originally there was “only one type of shepherd’s dog.”

Good luck with the old Scotch collie. That is the type I like best, although due to circumstances I haven’t been in a position to follow up in any concrete way.

Comment on The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect by Shep

Shep — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:14:10 +0000

Thanks for the good feedback, I will make some of these changes soon. However I personally have my reservations about the Borzoi cross. In all my research I have seen no actual evidence of such a cross, at least not on a wide enough scale that it effected the whole breed, I am planning a post on this website on the subject but haven’t gotten around to it yet. If you know of any good sources on this subject please point me in the right direction, I am open minded. You may find this post interesting http://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/2009/12/14/queen-victorias-collies/

Comment on The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect by akluis

akluis — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 05:52:08 +0000

I too suspect that the British Isles in the early 1800s to early 1900s most likely had many “land-races” of collie or shepherd dog, and these many landraces could probably be lumped together in master-categories of Border, Scotch, and English…or maybe put it as ‘slight and strong-eyed sheep dog type (border collie)’ ‘slightly heavier more loose-eyed sheep dog type (scotch)’ and ‘heavier, loose-eyed, nipper, sheep and cattle (english)”

after all, this same chunk of land has given us how many variations of the terrier?

I’d also have the ‘smooth and rough’ line branch off to the right not the left, and have a dotted arrow coming in with the Borzoi crossings that went on for a fancier head.

also in your “before 410″ box I’d have a lot more arrows to make it clear of all the intermixing.