Comments on: The Collie Family Tree is Incorrect

By: Inbred Mistakes II

Inbred Mistakes II — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:00:12 +0000

[...] The shepherd’s dog of the British Isles was a large and varied landrace from which numerous “breeds” have been created exclusively from that large pool {Border Collie, Welsh Shepherd}, as well as certain strains crossed out to other diverse gene pools to create other breeds {Australian Shepherd, English Shepherd} and other landraces {McNab Dog, Old Fashioned Scotch Collie}. Even after the Victorian era of segregation and breed solidification, many of these dogs still display a wide spectrum of traits and diversityunder a single breed banner {Old Fashioned Scotch Collie}.Even in the trial selected Border Collie, there are documented Bearded Collies in the ISDS Border Collie stud books and Kelpies in the Australian stud books. [...]

By: Shep

Shep — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:45:59 +0000

Wayne

It is interesting to me that in early sources you can find references to continental European shepherd dogs of all types (German, French, Spanish, etc) yet very few of these landraces survived intact. No doubt in American farm shepherds the blood of all of these types have accumulated.

By: Wayne McMillan

Wayne McMillan — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:05:20 +0000

This is an intriguing discussion and one worth having. Cross breeding across strains and types must have occurred as well as importations of all sorts of working dogs from Belgium, Spain, Southern Germany and France from the late 1600′s to the late 1800′s as agricultural/commercial/ industrial development took off and different breeds of sheep entered the country. There could have been no one distinct pure breed of working sheepdog/ collie among practical farmers.

By: Northumbrian Collies | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org

Northumbrian Collies | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:06:34 +0000

[...] It is my belief, based on the research I’ve done, that much of the differences in modern collie breeds originated in the regional varieties of sheep-dogs found in Great Britain. That the Rough Collie resulted largely from the shepherd dogs of the Scottish Highlands, the English Shepherd resulted largely from the shepherd dogs of England and that the Border Collie represents the descendants of the original sheep-dogs of Lowland Scotland and Northumbria. [More about British regional sheep-dogs] [...]

By: Wandering Willie | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org

Wandering Willie | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:07:55 +0000

[...] Note: The story below is about Willie, a “Northumbrian collie” from the Cheviot Hills, no doubt a representative of the regional shepherd dogs that would become know as the Border Collie in later years and not a true Scotch Collie. Read more about Britain’s different regional shepherd dogs. [...]

By: Linda Rorem

Linda Rorem — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:39:23 +0000

I’ve added a note to mine that I hope will help clarify it. As you point out, the diversity has been there all along. Different perspectives bring out different nuances and contribute to providing a more complete picture.

(p.s. that photo of Dunrovin Ole Shep is one of my favorites)

By: Shep

Shep — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 02:34:35 +0000

Linda

Thanks for the comment. My intention was not to cast aspersions on your chart, simply to clarify a matter that was a particular pet peeve of mine. I feel like a lot of people talk as though the diversity we see in collie-type dogs today was a result of breeding in the past 150 years, and your chart could certainly give one that impression, while it is my contention that most of that diversity has come down to us from the regional varieties of herding dogs and I wanted to create my own chart showing the influence of those regional varieties.

By: Linda Rorem

Linda Rorem — Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:58:54 +0000

Re: collie family tree. You’re right that my version was meant to show relationships, however, by no means was it intended to indicate that originally there was only one type of shepherd’s dog in Britain. I am familiar with the sources cited and others. There were great variations of shepherd dog type between regions and within regions, as well as commonalities within regions and across regions, e.g., shaggy-faced types occurred in England, Scotland and Wales, blue merles occurred in England, Scotland and Wales, etc., while at times a particular type was more common in a particular area and became associated with that area. (Then, throughout the 19th century, the Scottish collies became particularly influential, going into Wales and further south in England, mixing with the dogs there; further mixing occurred in the farm dogs of the U.S.; and the term “collie” for a working sheepdog became widespread and often used interchangeably with “shepherd’s dog” or “shepherd”.) Two factors are indicated by the single line shown at the top of the chart. One is no more than simplification on a chart, as noted on the chart itself. The other is that the modern breeds did not come down in clean, separate lines from earlier types. I suppose I could make an addition to the note at the top to clarify this, because I certainly do not believe or mean to imply that originally there was “only one type of shepherd’s dog.”

Good luck with the old Scotch collie. That is the type I like best, although due to circumstances I haven’t been in a position to follow up in any concrete way.

By: Shep

Shep — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:14:10 +0000

Thanks for the good feedback, I will make some of these changes soon. However I personally have my reservations about the Borzoi cross. In all my research I have seen no actual evidence of such a cross, at least not on a wide enough scale that it effected the whole breed, I am planning a post on this website on the subject but haven’t gotten around to it yet. If you know of any good sources on this subject please point me in the right direction, I am open minded. You may find this post interesting http://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/2009/12/14/queen-victorias-collies/

By: akluis

akluis — Sun, 11 Jul 2010 05:52:08 +0000

I too suspect that the British Isles in the early 1800s to early 1900s most likely had many “land-races” of collie or shepherd dog, and these many landraces could probably be lumped together in master-categories of Border, Scotch, and English…or maybe put it as ‘slight and strong-eyed sheep dog type (border collie)’ ‘slightly heavier more loose-eyed sheep dog type (scotch)’ and ‘heavier, loose-eyed, nipper, sheep and cattle (english)”

after all, this same chunk of land has given us how many variations of the terrier?

I’d also have the ‘smooth and rough’ line branch off to the right not the left, and have a dotted arrow coming in with the Borzoi crossings that went on for a fancier head.

also in your “before 410″ box I’d have a lot more arrows to make it clear of all the intermixing.