Comments on: Old-Time Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft

By: Sandra Williams

Sandra Williams — Fri, 01 Apr 2011 01:08:45 +0000

Andy,
As always, a great job. Well done.
I believe that the Breed Standard working draft that you have begun here is excellent and represents the breed, the wonderful old stories as well as the new accounts I have heard.
If I were to make one suggestion, and I could not have much to add to your draft, it would be perhaps a little more on the temperment, as I agree that this quality is one of the key characteristics of this wonderful old breed. Loyalty, faithfullness and devotion should perhaps be words to include, as these words speak to me of the Scotch Collie’s wonderful character in historical accounts as well as newer anecdotal accounts and descriptions of Scotch Collies today.
I agree with Jan that Shelties are a wonderful breed and I myself lost my beloved Sheltie a year and a half ago, but I am not sure that some of the character of the Sheltie, in breeding them, would fit as well with some of the key characteristics of the Scotch Collie, although there are undeniably many characteristics of the Sheltie (intelligence, working ability, loyalty) that would fit well. The Sheltie, however, tends to be more of a ‘sharp-eyed herding dog’ by instinct, and are more forward and strong eyed, as well as generally more likely to bark while working and running, whereas one of the highly held characteristics of the Scotch Collie, and one of the characteristics that most differentiated it from other working/herding dogs, was that they were soft-eyed, calm and quiet workers, as quoted here from ‘The Farmer’s Dog’ by John Holmes:
“They were all easy-going, level headed dogs, useful but not flashy workers, and quite willing to lie about the place when there was nothing better to do. Personally I think it is a great pity that this type has been practically exterminated by the increasing popularity of ‘strong-eyed’ dogs”.
Thank you for the opportunity to all share our views and opinions in defining the breed standard for this incredible, wonderful dog.

By: Shep

Shep — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:03:24 +0000

He actually has very nice eyes, in this picture the wind is blowing in his face which makes him appear to have small eyes.

By: Elaine

Elaine — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:56:00 +0000

The dog pictured has very small eyes. In my experience these eyes do not see well.

By: Jill

Jill — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:07:51 +0000

What a wonderful site you have! I’ve so enjoyed exploring both the site and the origins of the modern collie breeds. I have a few comments on the draft, since you asked. I had shelties for 25 years, and despite the horrible overbreeding and poor breeding of these dogs, they are absolutely stellar when you obtain them from an ethical, responsible breeder. Re Temperment: A good sheltie is NOT yappy, excitable, nervous or genetically shy, and these are completely in opposition to the breed standard. Although many shelties are not good with children, the larger ones seem to be less skittish around toddlers. One of the nicest sheltie characteristics is that they’ll work or play as long as you will and can be trained to do almost anything around a farm including varmint hunting, but are happy to lie around and veg when not busy. They especially like piles of laundry… Re Head Type: Shelties are supposed to have a head shaped like “a blunt wedge” either longer or more triangular, with a small but definite stop that looks much like the old scotch collie photos. I have seen exactly the head type you’re looking for in a few oversize shelties; modern rough collies were crossed into at least one sheltie line as recently as the 1960s, plus shelties do not breed true for size in the desired size range of 13-16 inches at the shoulder. If you are yourself establishing a bloodline and not just a registry, you might consider including some sheltie crosses should you come across a larger (16″ and up) dog that fits your mental picture. As for a foxy look, English shelties (and collies too?) have a much foxier look than those from North America. I would caution against having too “sharp” a muzzle – this can lead to undershot lower jaws which can cause health problems. You can have a sharpish muzzle and still have good underjaw. Re Gait: On many of the Farm Collie sites, it seems like a LOT of the dogs, whether English Shepherds or other, have very straight rear angulation. Dogs with a primary gait of the trot, like collies and most other shepherds, need some angulation in the rear so that they don’t tire as easily. You might consider stipulating some angulation, even if you don’t want to get too specific about it. The sheltie standard actually states what angles the bones should have in relation to each other for both front and rear conformation, but I don’t know that that level of detail is necessary. If a dog can work all day long, that’s the test. Re Eye shape: Personally, I find that a round eye is not nearly so expressive or pretty as an almond shaped eye. That’s just my preference, though. Re Color: Would you consider adding white as a color? Color-headed whites have no genetic defects and this is an established collie color (it’s also in shelties but due to politics in the ASSA a few decades back, they cannot be shown in conformation.) There are no genetic problems associated with color-headed whites. Your description above would imply that sable merles would be allowed, which is fine, but be aware that these are difficult to detect as adults; if bred to another merle, either sable or blue, then double merle pups can result and usually have vision, hearing or other serious health problems. I only mention this because it isn’t mentioned anywhere that I could find on your site. Like Jan, I also vote to have black and tan allowed! OK, I will stop now since I’m sure you’re tired of reading this!!

By: Shep

Shep — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 12:39:00 +0000

Jan

Thanks for the feedback.

You are right, collies today are much larger than in previous times, but so are humans, much of this can no doubt be attributed to better nutrition.

I don’t think black and tan was intentionally left out, it would no doubt be covered by the phrase “any combination thereof is acceptable”. But good luck finding one of these.

It is my belief that “treacherous” was nothing more than a negative stereotype that the breed had, and not an actual breed characteristic. As evidence I submit the wealth of stories about the scotch collie on this website, no evidence of a treacherous nature is found here. Some breeds in our day suffer with negative stereotyping, Rottweilers for example. However, being unfriendly to people not their people is certainly acceptable and quite common, I believe the phrase “reserved with strangers” would allow for a certain amount of that sort of behavior. I for one prefer my dogs to be unfriendly to strangers until I tell them it is okay.

By: jan

jan — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:48:48 +0000

A couple thoughts… I’m glad your size range only goes up to 65 pounds since all the early records suggest the original collies were pretty small. Selection for show and over here in the states where there were larger predators made larger dogs more common but in Watson’s The Dog Book and other places it’s obvious the early collies were large Sheltie size.

Why no black and tans. Again, that is probably the most common of the early collie color. Sable was quite rare. Merle was also common. But both in working and early show lines the B&T was very prominant.

Temperament – the original collies were quite sharp and generally unfriendly to people who weren’t their people. Treacherous was a word fairly often applied. Not that I’m advocating selection for this trait, mind you, but it is the historical temperament.

By: Online Scotch Collie Registry Launched Today! | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org

Online Scotch Collie Registry Launched Today! | Old Time Farm Shepherd .org — Mon, 24 May 2010 21:14:19 +0000

[...] Right now it is merely an online record of farm collie pedigrees, I would like to take the next step and officially register dogs that meet certain standards to be considered an “Old Fashioned Scotch Collie” but I need more outside help for that. If this sounds appealing to you please take a look at the breed standard draft I wrote up a few weeks ago and let me know your thoughts on the Old Fashioned Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft. [...]