Look at the research I have done on this site related to the origins of the English Shepherd, the Scotch Collie didn’t have to diverge into RC and BC as the English Shepherd was always different from the Scotch and it stands to reason that the shepherd dogs of the border region were a natural blend of these 2 types. I have to agree with Christopher, in my research I have not seen any evidence of this mid-nineteenth century divergence so often talked about in Collie history.

It is my opinion that the RC lovers cling tenaciously to the Queen Victoria myth because it gives their dogs prestige, while the RC haters cling to this myth because it supports the story that she bred in Borzoi and thereby ruined the breed. As breed historians we ought to discard all preconceived notions and look at the facts with an open mind.

Shep

Please provide *primary sources* for any of the outlandish claims you are making.

* Find me a photo of the Queen with a “Rough” or “Smooth” Collie. Heck, find me one of a Scotch Collie.

* Then, find me her personal writing where she says how much she is in love with said dog.

I’ve already done this with her Border Collie types.

* The dogs she wrote about as personal favorites are not of the Rough/Smooth Collie type at all.

* All the dogs I listed are perfectly identifiable as Border Collies in type. We can also source them to the very region and to an established breeder of what became known as the Border Collie.

* Find me her writings where she talks lovingly about a dog that you can identify as one of your flavor of collies.

* SHE registered them in the USA then? Now why would she do this? Can you even find her personal dogs registered in the UK? Unverifiable claims by other breeders don’t count. Certainly not breeders in the USA.

* If this was official, there must be documentation. Please find it and show it to us.

* Please provide kennel records of Sharp or Noble being shown in Conformation contemporaneously with the Queen.

* Please find me pedigrees with names and dates that match the dogs the Queen writes about.

* Besides looking perfecly like Border Collies, Sharp and Noble CLEARLY don’t resemble the Scotch Collies of their day, which already had a pointy face long before Czar Nicholas II sent Queen Victoria a single Borzoi.

* Flat-Coat, Gordon Setter WHAT? Again, provide a shred of evidence.

* You claim you’ve done extensive research, you should have primary sources at your finger tips. Kennel Club breed histories aren’t primary sources.

* Several Grand Dames, Several years ago… again, please be specific and provide documentation. There isn’t any genetic evidence of this, let alone the physical appearance of it. Show BCs are polar opposites in type to Show Collies.

* The great number of paintings? Again, please provide one that is Victorian and not Edwardian. I’ve seen EDWARDIAN paintings of Edward’s family with sable collies.

* That the Royal Kennels eventually had Scotch Collies isn’t in question. What is in question is their relationship with Victoria.

* King Edward VII is not Queen Victoria. Sandringham is not Victoria’s kennel, it was established by Edward.

* Show Collie folks have been distorting the record, using Queen Victoria’s name to pump up their flavor. The facts don’t support this.

Again, please illuminate the record with some primary sources.

Cheers,

Christopher Landauer
BorderWars blog

I am becoming more and more interested in the Gordon Setter crosses, the more I research historical sources, the more references I collect from the late 1800s and turn of the century that mention it.

Perhaps it is as simple as the Duke acquiring Noble from Elliot as a gift. When the Queen became enamored with the dog, of course she invited the true origin of the dog to the castle.

The link with Hindhope Jed is an exciting new avenue for me to research, and this begins to tidy up the history quite nicely.

If future DNA analysis can confirm the Setter crosses, perhaps a repeated outcross would become more palatable to the BC community in the future.